Time for crow pie!

[Indiana]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn

Could it be that many Europeans just blindly follow their left-wing media?

Now that's exactly the problem...

[Rags]

Wise words Red Red.
I sincerly hope the new regime is not corrupt and that the West will help the people to rebuild their country. And offcourse that BinLaden is put to trial by international law.

When haven't we helped? What makes you think we won't? It's in our best interest too you know.

I don't think Red Red is a local West hater Rags. We Europeans don't just blindly follow our leaders.

I don't blindly follow my leaders, and neither do our citizens. You are assuming way too much about people you have no clue about.

Rags

[Rags]

you said (referring to the terrorists):
These 'people' were very well established in connection finacially and in many other ways. They were here on visas.

and yet that was one of your criteria for NOT trying these individuals..

No, you missed my point. We don't treat non citizens the same way in the legal system, never have, never will.

actually Wombat is correct, these tribrunials can take place without showing the accused evidence, without publicity, without a lawyer, without a defense and without a jury and without and appeal. The maximum penalty is death.

Did I say anything to the contrary?

That ANY state do this is wrong, be it afghanistan, England, timbucktoo or the United Stated of America (remember the 6th Amendment? ).

Maybe it is wrong, but your state has done this too. EVERY state does this, UN made the laws very defined.
Don't come here trying to preach MY constitution. Our constitution DOES NOT apply to non citizens, but our laws do give them that privelage in normalcy.

(technically they could do it for a visa expiring by a week!!!)

No. Technically they couldn't. You are wayyyy off course.

As for the disycutter/cluster bomb discussion:



1 The DC and the B52 ARE veitnam era weapons.... some DC bombs may have had guidance fitted, but you can bet that only some.... Cluster Bombs have no guidance as a rule...

The 'dumb bombs' are dropped using a computer program that sets the proper time to drop in order to hit the target. That is semi guided and it's actually pretty damn accurate.

2 The AVERAGE does not say much without giving the standard deviation.... (I am sure you agree)

I agree with you. And the standard deviation of guided bombs is right up there too. Shit happens.

If the bombs are SO accurate how come those soildiers and the CIA calling airstrikes got hit. ON 4 TELEVISED OCCASIONS. Dumb bombs are just that.... they fall they go boom (usually).

Actually the CIA calling airstrikes got hit with a GUIDED BOMB. And they were RIGHT NEXT TO THE ACTION. Not in the city, not in a populated area. Yes, sometimes mistakes happen. It sucks.

3 In Iraq, only 3 per cent of the bombs dropped were active... Most common munitions were the Mk 82 (you can look it up) The bulk of munitions were dropped by strike aircraft at an altitude > 30,000 feet, and yes these are more accurate.

So? Do you have a point?

Please do not insult me and please watch your language. It is not worth discussing with you if you are going to be vile. It is simpler to say -'i disagree with you' or 'I feel you are wrong because....'

Please do not tell me how to post or how to use my language. I wasn't insulting you, I let your posts do that job.

For the 4th time in this fori I am not a West Hater (I am Irish for Gods sake! give me a drink and I LOVE EVERYGODDAMBODY).

Whatever you say bud.

I believe that it is a common perception outside the US that Mr Bush WAS looking for a war. It is not that he was looking for the US to be attacked.... it is that he has been looking for an excuse to attack Iraq...

I believe it was common misconception. They see he is GB's son, so he has to have the same views. Well, I can tell you he is VERY different from his father. He is closer to Reagan than he is his father.

Rags

[Dr Mordrid]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KvHagedorn

Could it be that many Europeans just blindly follow their left-wing media?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with Indiana.....you nailed this one bigtime. It's so reflexive one wonders if its genetic.

Dr. Mordrid

[RedRed]

Rags

Please do not tell me how to post or how to use my language.

Matrox_angers_me was warned just last week about foul language. The fact he was a fool as well is neither here nor there. I simply asked you not to swear nor insult, but to use civil language. Read the bloody forum protocols if you have a problem with my request.

I am not going to post any more on this or any related subject. I am fed up with you making personal remarks rather than reasoned argument or discussion.

I believe that it is a common perception outside the US that Mr Bush WAS looking for a war. It is not that he was looking for the US to be attacked.... it is that he has been looking for an excuse to attack Iraq...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I believe it was common misconception. They see he is GB's son, so he has to have the same views. Well, I can tell you he is VERY different from his father. He is closer to Reagan than he is his father.

And what difference does that make? Regan attacked/invaded Pannama (US intrests) Grenada (Comunist and popular revolution) without serious provication.
It may be a misconception, but it exists, that was what I was saying...

::::::

Originally posted by KvHagedorn

Could it be that many Europeans just blindly follow their left-wing media?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with Indiana.....you nailed this one bigtime. It's so reflexive one wonders if its genetic.

You say that you guys are not being bullies. EVERY time someone says something against your right wing cr*p, you have to get a boot in. Every single person who has written to agree with anything I say is branded a fool, and critisied, MDHome, KeiFront, etc....

I have quoted your own government, assorted republican senators, wired news (part of lycos), Sky news, the BBC. I have never quoted from, nor have I used references from, ANY socialist publication.

Where I discuss my own opinions, I have stated that that is what they are. Where I am weong, I am happy to stand corrected, and have said so on several occasions.

I have just had enough and will not be posting on these types of issues again.

Thanks for the Pain
RedRed

[KeiFront]

Rags Please do not tell me how to post or how to use my language. I wasn't insulting you, I let your posts do that job

Can you please refrase this sentence Rags, you have every right to state your opinion (like we all do) but do it politly.

[Dilitante1]

In Re: bombing

I approve the use of some carpet bombing as when the ground is disturbed, so are the countless mines. Mines are now made with plastics and not detectable with metal detectors as in earlier wars/conflicts....so we are using dogs (seen on news last nite)trained to detect the smell of the explosives.....if carpet bombing helps clean the land from these indescriminate killers...GREAT! There have been stories for years about mines killing/mameing people for years long after conflicts were over...Princess Di supported this cause for many years before her untimely death.....


nuff said....

-pickle with a view

[Wombat]

I would hardly consider B-52's Vietnam-era weaponry. The last B-52 was built in 1962, but it's not the same plane it was 40 years ago. The airframe is the same, because it's a damn good one. The engines are new tech, and the piloting and targeting are all upgraded as well. It is a 21st century bomber, make no mistake about it.

[KRSESQ]

Grenada (Comunist and popular revolution)

Can't let this one slide...

The Marxist takeover in Grenada was not a "popular revolution." It was an attempt to overthrow the legitimate government by a bunch of hard-line Marxists who were very well equiped and trained and funded by Cuba and the USSR.

Too bad no Grenadans post here. I'd love to get their opinion. By virtually every account I ever saw, they were damned glad to see us.

"Rescue Mission" is more like it.

Kevin

[mdhome]

Originally posted by Wombat
I would hardly consider B-52's Vietnam-era weaponry. The last B-52 was built in 1962, but it's not the same plane it was 40 years ago. The airframe is the same, because it's a damn good one. The engines are new tech, and the piloting and targeting are all upgraded as well. It is a 21st century bomber, make no mistake about it.

Ever since I was a child I have loved B52's but a 21st Century bomber it aint! Its sole reason for remaining is because it doesnt have to go up against a modern intact air defense system (an analogy would be Flying Fortresses/Lancasters against the luftwaffe in 44). All the real hard work as already been done by F15/F18 and Stealth bombers etc in supressing defenses. However I am always prepared to be proven wrong

regards MD

[Rags]

Originally posted by mdhome


Ever since I was a child I have loved B52's but a 21st Century bomber it aint! Its sole reason for remaining is because it doesnt have to go up against a modern intact air defense system (an analogy would be Flying Fortresses/Lancasters against the luftwaffe in 44). All the real hard work as already been done by F15/F18 and Stealth bombers etc in supressing defenses. However I am always prepared to be proven wrong

regards MD

Show me a more advanced plane that can carry the same load and has the same distance the B52 has. It may be based on an early platform, but it has a lot of new tech in it. It's not stealth or anything, but it doesn't really have to be, we have planes for that. It has guided bombing capability, and 21st century imaging, flight control, and satellite link systems.

Rags

[Rags]

Matrox_angers_me was warned just last week about foul language. The fact he was a fool as well is neither here nor there. I simply asked you not to swear nor insult, but to use civil language. Read the bloody forum protocols if you have a problem with my request.

I didn't insult you, and I follow the posting guidelines, I have been a member here far longer than you and know the ropes. If there is a problem with language it's not your job to inform me to quit it. If Ant or a mod has a problem with it, then they will tell me to stop, not some sobbing member.

I am not going to post any more on this or any related subject. I am fed up with you making personal remarks rather than reasoned argument or discussion.

HAHAHAHA, I gave my opinion that you would be a moron for believing something and you are fed up. You are very weak kneed if you feel that way. I have made reasoned arguments, but you dance around the facts and don't address my arguments. You change the subject, which is typical when someone is unprepared for debate.

And what difference does that make? Regan attacked/invaded Pannama (US intrests) Grenada (Comunist and popular revolution) without serious provication.
It may be a misconception, but it exists, that was what I was saying...

WHAT????? Panama was taken over by a drug lord who KILLED 14 americans staying there. We went in and got the drug lord out. Oh, wait. We should allow people like that to sit right on our borders and kill our people...I forgot.
Grenada was taken over by a hostile regime with no provocation. They killed many citizens and crushed their military. THat's not provocation? Puhhhhleeeeeze.
You just don't like it when the US has enough of the crap, gets tired of being walked on, so they do something about it.

You say that you guys are not being bullies. EVERY time someone says something against your right wing cr*p, you have to get a boot in.

Sorry pal, but I am far from being right wing. We love our freedom here, and it's not a right wing concept. It's not a political concept. It's a way of life concept. We are willing to fight for keeping it. I am NOT right wing. If anything, I am left winged. Oh, and what's the difference between me calling you a moron for believing something, and you calling what I believe crap? Such hypocrisy...tsk tsk.

Every single person who has written to agree with anything I say is branded a fool, and critisied, MDHome, KeiFront, etc....

I never branded them a fool.

I have just had enough and will not be posting on these types of issues again.

Awwww...Have we hurt your delicate senses? So sorry!

Thanks for the Pain

Oh, what it must be like to attatch pain to ideas and beliefs. *sob sob*

Rags

[mdhome]

Originally posted by Rags

Show me a more advanced plane that can carry the same load and has the same distance the B52 has. It may be based on an early platform, but it has a lot of new tech in it. It's not stealth or anything, but it doesn't really have to be, we have planes for that. It has guided bombing capability, and 21st century imaging, flight control, and satellite link systems.

Rags

Rags I'm not disputing its qualities. I'm just saying that compared to some of the roles performed by other aircraft, the B52 has a relatively easy job. As I said a 21st Century aircraft it aint.

regards MD

[Rags]

Originally posted by KeiFront
Can you please refrase this sentence Rags, you have every right to state your opinion (like we all do) but do it politly.

No. That's exactly what I meant. I think your posts will stand on their own merits, and that's exactly what that was implying.

Rags

[Dr Mordrid]

Replying to a couple of things here;

1. Grenada was indeed taken over in a violent, Cuban run "revollution". What really prompted Regan to invade was that the surrounding island nations were pleading for help. They knew damn well that they were next on the Cuban agenda and didn't like it any more than the Grenadans did.

What was really telling was that once the US forces got there they found a new military airstrip and Cuban Army troops in control of the island. Sounds to me like the other island nations had it right.

2. While the B-52 is an old platform it's got something the newer platforms do not: long range and the ability to carry an extremely large and varied load. Once the newer attack aircraft take care of the C&C, SAM sites and their radar the BUFF (B-52's name among pilots: Big Ugly Fat F***er) comes in and takes care of the rest, especially troop concentrations.

Even with all this power it's still not necessarily what I'd be most afraid of if I were on the ground. If I saw a transport drop a very large barrel with a paracute I'd start digging for China

Dr. Mordrid