Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

[GT98]

Whats this Lord of the Rings Shit? Oh well guess I'll watch the DVD when I get settled into my new place

[Lizzard[MPE]]

jason...

of course he cant fight a million of the freakin things

[Dilitante1]

just rent the cartoons more fun anyways

[Drizzt]

Originally posted by TDB


Gandalf isn´t that powerfull, there is no way he could fight his way through Sarumans entire orc-army.

well, technically he might be, but it wouldn´t be an option for him, being a member of the wizard order, means that his job is to study(in gandalfs case, hobbits).
He is mainly a catalysator, who helps the mortals evolve in the right direction, not a superhero.
I don´t think he is allowed to make political changes by himself, by slaying Sarumans entire army.

I could be wrong as I said, I haven´t read silmarilion(not all of it atleast).

Gandalf can easily struck all Saruman's orcs 'cause he miss no power to do it.

But, he doesn't do it because he is not allowed. And, even more, he can't just because Tolkien is an idiot, but this is just a side note

[Gurm]

Drizzt,

Incorrect. He DOES lack the power to do it, in his current form. Here's the thing, and I didn't want to get into this here.

Gandalf is a minor Maia. He was ostensibly sent to middle earth by Manwe, HOWEVER as we learn on the bridge of Khazad-Dum, he is in fact REALLY the servant of Ea himself (Illuvatar, the "Secret Flame"). When asked what happened to him after the Balrog fight, he says that he "walked outside the boundaries of the earth" and "communed with the secret flame".

HOWEVER, in his form as Gandalf the Grey, his sole purpose was to watch. He was not vested with enough physical power in that form to do a hell of a lot. None of the wizards were, although Saruman had GAINED a disproportionate amount of power through his meddling in ring-lore.

The wizards were very specifically given all the frailties of their human frame. They could be physically killed by the same sorts of things that killed other humans. Their limitations were almost exclusively voluntary, however - hence Gandalf's reluctance to accept the ring... fearing that it could loosen the restrictions placed upon him.

- Gurm

[Drizzt]

Gurm, I know, but I was only joking

It's a bit complex, but it's that the more I read Eddings books the more I'm starting to think that Tolkien is heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily "overrated".

[az]

PLEASE please please give a spoiler alert before posting spoilers. I for one haven't read the book, and will not read it, until I have seen all three movies in their extended version, and I really don't know what will happen in The Two Towers, and I don't want to know beforehand. A movie is so much better when you don't know what you'll be watching.

AZ

[Gurm]

Az,

I made sure that I didn't post any spoilers. Gandalf being resurrected is no longer off limits since the TTT trailer came out... I personally don't think Jackson should have directly shown him in that trailer. *sigh*

At any rate, a discussion of the metaphycial makeup of wizards is hardly a spoiler.

- Gurm

[Gurm]

Drizzt,

The problem with comparing Tolkien to ANYONE else is ... it's like comparing Shakespeare to Tennessee Williams.

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that English isn't your native language, yeah? That's not a hack on you, but it does make appreciating a language in its purest form difficult.

Tolkien is pure English. He is prose beyond the skills of mortal men. Sure, I concur with some of Eddings' analyses of Tolkien (from "The Rivan Codex") in that he was very moral and very stodgy and very boring at times.

But he was DA MAN.

- Gurm

[TdB]

AZ, I don´t think this thread contains any spoilers(well, maybe a few), what we are discussing will probably not end up in the movie anyway, this is more a silmarilion-discussion than a LOTR-discussion.
The wizard-fight we are discussing is from the first movie, and is never described in the book.
And the mythical nature of the wizards, is purely from silmarilion, and only appears as subtle hints in the book, and doesn´t play a big role in the book either.

anyway it might contain a few book-spoilers, but I don´t think it contains anny movie-spoilers.
believe me you don´t know enough of the story to be spoiled, don´t worry.

[Drizzt]

Gurm, do you know that this is going to be a really, really, really long thread?

First of all, I must admit that I've never thought about his prose in English. As you have pointed out -and how you may have noticed from my sign-, English is not my primary language. To be honest, I'm really poor in it
So this is something I can't really discuss, and I can't really think to take the Italian translation and judge from it.
As I think that proper language "handling" is important for a writer, and as you say he was great in this, however, this goes in obviously in creating a more positive opinion in me.


But...English is not the most widen usely primary language, and most of the world has opinion in Tolkien greatness that differs from language skills.
So, even if in this I can be with you, let's try to bring this discussion over a terrain where I can argue, too...

When I start (argue + ing=?) about Tolkien greatness, one of the first thing that people replies me -when they replies, because often they simply limit to say "You are a dement, Tolkien is a god, you aren't valuable of listening to"- I was saying, one of the first thing is "You must be joking, no one other author can be considered smart because Tolkien is been the first and he created everything, so others are only copying him and therefore their work is worst".


At this point, usually, I finish discussing because this reply really upset me!!!
This is something like someone telling you:
"Ferrari cars are ugly and not worth a look, because Henry T. Ford is the one who created cars and everybody is only copying from him and therefore all cars are worst than the first Ford"

To be honest, it's even worst, because Tolkien is the first to do absolutely nothing! He has NOT invented fantasy. He has NOT invented narration. He has NOT invented orcs, elves and wizards!

To be honest, apart from the fact that he is a great tecnician (and it's obvious, he was a teacher and a sagist, so he knew how to write a text), I think that the story is really poor. Again, I don't doubt about Tolkien greatness as a writer, but I really think that LOTR is too much loved for what it really is.

[TdB]

actually, I allways thought that Tolkien, was the first author, the created a world and a plot, and THEN described some of the characters that lived trough that plot.

meaning that the plot wasn´t character driven, but that the characters were plot driven, the side effect of this approach is the you only see a part of the plot through the characters, and that even the part of the plot that you don´t see still holds water in the big picture.

I belive authors before Tolkien, decided what the characters should experience, and just wrote that, without much thought on the big picture in the storyline.

he was revolutionary in that way.

I haven´t read the book in english either, so I can´t comment on the language.

[Technoid]

Mayby I should read it....

I tried it in swedish but the book never really "took off"

[Gurm]

Ahh, ok Drizzt. Some clarifications.

1. Tolkien DID invent the modern concepts of elves, wizards, trolls, orcs, dwarves, hobbits, etc. Most fantasy from the last 50 years is based on his works. Considering that these stories were first developed when he was in the trenches... in world war 1... which was 80+ years ago... it's pretty unlikely that anyone else had come up with these concepts first. Sure, there have always been fairie stories, but Tolkien created modern fantasy.

2. He created an entire world, and put people in it. That's new and revolutionary. Eddings did the same thing, but few other authors do that. They usually write a story about characters. Tolkien wrote a story about a world that already existed in his mind. Not only did he create the world, he created the creation of the world, and an entire mythos and history for the world since the beginning of time and all the way to the end of time.

3. He created languages for every race and subrace in his books. Each region has its own dialect, and he wrote all of them down. Everyone's name MEANS something. Hobbit names are very different from human names, because their language has changed over the eons.

4. Every event that happens is laid out for a reason. This series (Lord of the Rings) is merely a pivotal year in the eons of history of Middle Earth.

- Gurm

[az]

Gurm, TDB: I stopped reading Gurm's post when I thought it looked like it was full of spoilers, so sorry if I told you off for nothing

It's just that I would absolutely HATE to accidentally read any spoilers about just about any film I like, but especially on this one (I've seen the first one ~8 times, most of the times the english version).

Oh, and please bear in mind that movies are released later in europe than in the US (which I find really stupid...). LotR:TTT is due in december, and Minority Report in October!

So I just wanted to say: please mark spoilers - the way Gurm did it with his first spoiler in this thread is very nice - so I can't even accidentally read it

AZ