Russian crises....

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by KRSESQ
All's fair in love and war. If they're going to use their religious beliefs to justify brutal violence against us, why shouldn't we use their same beliefs against them?

Kevin

Well, what this will inevitably do is to increase their hatred of us, bringing less radical Muslims into the fold.. a classical escalation pattern. The Chechens may now do even worse things, and we might just see the Russians eventually committing genocide and utterly destroying the Chechens, which will certainly not be good for Arab-west relations.

[Indiana]

You're now considering Russia as "the West", Wombat ??

I think this is a legitimate action to block those that murder just to get into their equivalent of "heaven" the access to that place by using their very own means.
No, it's not a nice thing to do, but in a special (more old-testamentary) way it's "justice".

One important additional thing to consider: This was probably the worst thing anyone could do for the Chechenians. Now even the dumbest in the western world got rubbed into their noses that those are moslemic.
Guess what? Noone will cry or say a thing when the russian army goes there again.....

[Wombat]

You're now considering Russia as "the West", Wombat ??

Only as far as the fundamentalist Muslims will. If you think they won't come to group Russia in the same lot as us, you're mistaken.

[Dr Mordrid]

Recommended reading for anyone discussing the start of WWI;

"Guns of August" Barbara Tuchman (1962; won the Pulitzer Prize)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/034538623X/102-5108771-7955347

President Kennedy and his staff used the lessons laid out in this work as a guide of what not to do during the Cuban missile crisis.

You're now considering Russia as "the West", Wombat ??

Sure Russia is "the west" as far as radical muslims are concerened. It is, after all, a Russian Orthodox Christian country at its core regardless of what the commies tried to do over the years.

As for your other consideration: agreed....the fundamentalist muslim's tactics are totally self-destructive and delusional.

Dr. Mordrid

[KRSESQ]

Normally I would never advocate desecration of anyone's corpse. But this situation is about as far from "normal" as any of us can imagine.

The enemy in this case believes that those who die a martyr's death are guaranteed a seat at the right hand of God. Also, their definition of "martyr" is so broad it could mean almost anything. Conversely, they believe with almost maniacal passion that to die in an "unclean" state or to have the body defiled and left "unclean" bars them from entry into Heaven.

This may be their only exploitable weakness. At least until some Mulla somewhere invents a "cleansing prayer" of some kind to get around this roadblock.

It would be wonderful if we could make this all go away by pulling out of the Middle East entirely, stop all oil imports from this region so we have no economic ties, and letting them enjoy their fanaticism in peace. Unfortunately it won't stop them from wanting us dead. They hate us because they've been brainwashed to believe we represent everything that Islam holds blasphemous and evil. How the hell do we combat THAT if not by turning their own beliefs against them?

Kevin

[Wombat]

The enemy in this case believes that those who die a martyr's death are guaranteed a seat at the right hand of God. Also, their definition of "martyr" is so broad it could mean almost anything. Conversely, they believe with almost maniacal passion that to die in an "unclean" state or to have the body defiled and left "unclean" bars them from entry into Heaven.

This may be their only exploitable weakness. At least until some Mulla somewhere invents a "cleansing prayer" of some kind to get around this roadblock.

My point exactly. You'll have questionable short-term gains, but you'll also piss off a large part of the general Muslim world. If these people have already distorted Islam's message enough that civilian massacares are acceptable to them (which is in complete conflict with Islam's rules of jihad), then what makes you think they can't warp their beliefs around one little detail?

Unfortunately it won't stop them from wanting us dead. They hate us because they've been brainwashed to believe we represent everything that Islam holds blasphemous and evil. How the hell do we combat THAT if not by turning their own beliefs against them?

These attackers are a small minority. Not every Muslim thinks we are the "Great Satan," but if we start playing the part, we're only going to enlarge the ranks of the zealots.

[Dr Mordrid]

Problem Wombat:

In case you hadn't noticed a "large part of the general Muslim world" is already pissed off. What we have to do is deal with it. Maybe not the majority, but enough to threaten our way of life until we demonstate to the "arab/muslim street" that such actions are counterproductive from their point of view. The sooner the better and negotiations don't seem to be the way to that end since they aren't listening.

Dr. Mordrid

[Wombat]

Yeah, I know they're pissed off. Does that mean it's okay to keep providing them ammunition?

Things <I>can</I> improve. We've got a pretty big foot in the door with Jordan right now, we have to be careful where we gamble it. Also, Megawati's been helping (grudgingly, probably though) a little lately.

[GT98]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
Problem Wombat:

In case you hadn't noticed a "large part of the general Muslim world" is already pissed off. What we have to do is deal with it. Maybe not the majority, but enough to threaten our way of life until we demonstate to the "arab/muslim street" that such actions are counterproductive from their point of view. The sooner the better and negotiations don't seem to be the way to that end since they aren't listening.

Dr. Mordrid

Also doesn't help that they are raised by their education system for the most part to reguard the west in a unfavorable light. Perhaps the the PC movement has gone to far and people have to relize that there are other people out there that don't think like us and us pulling the wool over our own eyes is going to wind up cutting our throats in the long run.

[candyman]

I agree
Terrorists see fatal outcome of their actions rather as a reward than as a punishment. There is not much more honorable in their religion than to be e mortyr in their "holy war" against evil us.

So my point is that we have to find new ways to fight those arab-terrorists than the traditional methods. Regardless of what they do, how many they kill, they will never get to their heaven and that should be anough for quite many to reconsider joining the gerilla. It does not sound human thou, to abuse dead people, but this war has already got durty and I dont actually see a simple solution to it.

/ candyman

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
Recommended reading for anyone discussing the start of WWI;

"Guns of August" Barbara Tuchman (1962; won the Pulitzer Prize)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/034538623X/102-5108771-7955347

President Kennedy and his staff used the lessons laid out in this work as a guide of what not to do during the Cuban missile crisis.

Tuchmann is hindered by an inevitable bias in her writings, as almost any American Jew writing just after World War 2 would be. Every sentence concerning Germany or German persons seems full of a poorly obscured loathing. Of course she won the Pulitzer.. hatred for Germans was in fashion, and has been kept in fashion for years as an undercurrent in English-speaking society. We still get to see even the common German footsoldier portrayed as a dishonorable, treacherous, diabolical entity in literature like Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan. Many Jewish authors and filmmakers never seem to tire of sowing hatred for Germans wherever they can, whether it be conscious or unconscious. So, since they will seemingly hold on to this blind hatred until the end of time, they really cannot be trusted to deliver any kind of impartial view now, can they?

Concerning the two world wars, almost no writing by contemporaries of the events can be considered unbiased. I have upon my bookshelves one of the most egregious offenders, the seven volume Source Records of the Great War, published in 1923, which is practically nothing more than a diatribe of hate propaganda directed towards Germany, blaming them outright for the war. Thankfully, cooler heads prevail among serious historians of our own day. John Keegan's The First World War is one of the very best on the subject of WWI, and Robert Massie's Dreadnought is also quite an excellent examination of the personalities and events leading up to the war. Alas, humans being human will never be without bias, so readers must bear this in mind as they read every sentence of histories.

[Dogbert]

I do remember one thing I heard about German anti tank infantry which was somewhat dishonorable.
They'd wait in the bushes with anti tank missiles, then a British convoy approached, they'd destroy the leading tank and then surrender.

After a few incidents of this kind, a British commander said he doesn't want to see any Anti Tank captives anymore.

Besides that, they were soldiers like any other was. Besides, many history studies prove that the non-germans were the worst. They 'worked hard' to be as ruthless as possible to show they're as 'good' as the germans.
In France, being caught by the militia (French collaborators) was 10 times worse than being caught by the Germans.

[Admiral]

KvH managing to kill another thread

[KvHagedorn]

As wars escalate, they become more and more brutal, and things unthinkable at the beginning of a war become commonplace. If any of you have seen Windtalkers, you will remember that Nicholas Cage's Navajo partner (a green recruit) is totally aghast when he sees Cage (a grizzled veteran) gun down Japanese soldiers with violent fury. He doesn't understand because he has not been in that kill-or-be-killed environment, whereas Cage had seen his whole platoon killed under his command. By the end of the campaign, the Windtalker has become as bloodthirsty as any grizzled veteran. Seeing your best friends die like that changes a person.

This is why I mentioned that wrapping the dead bodies of the Chechen terrorists in pigskin is probably not a good idea. Wars escalate on an incremental basis, and this is a significant one.

[Joel]

No what we need is for the more moderate Muslims, the ones who keep saying that Islam is a religion of peace, to stand up and be more vocal to these fanatics and say enough is enough. IMO until they do their silence is not only showing support for the fanatics but is also showing the rest of the world that maybe it's not about peace after all.

I may be a Christian but I condemn any Christian who uses that as an excuse to kill someone else. And will do everything within my power to see to it that those people come to justice. In other words I condemn pro-lifers who have killed abortion doctors and bombed abortion clinics and in no way will I ever acknowledge that their acts were right or will get them into heaven.

Joel