Russian crises....

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Admiral
Pan Slavic thing.

Yes, exactly.. same crap that lit the fuse that killed how many millions in two world wars? The action Austria-Hungary took against Serbia for harboring and supporting terrorism is remarkably similar to the one the US took against Afghanistan for the same reason (and to the actions Russia herself is now is taking against Chechnya.) World War I (and therefore WW2) could have been averted if Nicholas II had had the backbone to stand up to his Pan-Slavic jingoistic generals, and avoid turning this localized conflict into a general European slaughter.

[goldstein]

KvHagedorn, your historical ignorance on WWI is breathtaking. I suggest you enroll in a first year european history course before embarass yourself further. Stunning, truly stunning.

World War One was based on treaties that were viewed as unbreakable due to historical and legal precedents; not some "hey Boris, let's help out little Boskovic because he is a great cousin".

To distill it down to a " Pan-Slavic jingoistic " is a misunderstanding of the fundamental facts which led to the state of War. I'll try to help you understand as best I can of the key events:

Austria-Hungary, unsatisfied with Serbia's response to her ultimatum (which in the event was almost entirely placatory: however her jibbing over a couple of minor clauses gave Austria-Hungary her sought-after cue) declared war on Serbia on 28 July 1914.


Russia, bound by treaty to Serbia, announced mobilisation of its vast army in her defence, a slow process that would take around six weeks to complete.


Germany, allied to Austria-Hungary by treaty, viewed the Russian mobilisation as an act of war against Austria-Hungary, and after scant warning declared war on Russia on 1 August.


France, bound by treaty to Russia, responded by announcing war against Germany and, by extension, on Austria-Hungary on 3 August. Germany promptly responded by invading neutral Belgium so as to reach Paris by the shortest possible route.


Britain, allied to France by a more loosely worded treaty which placed a "moral obligation" upon her to defend France, declared war against Germany on 4 August. Her reason for entering the conflict lay in another direction: she was obligated to defend neutral Belgium by the terms of a 75-year old treaty.

With Germany's invasion of Belgium on 4 August, and the Belgian King's appeal to Britain for assistance, Britain committed herself to Belgium's defence later that day. Like France, she was by extension also at war with Austria-Hungary.


With Britain's entry into the war, her colonies and dominions abroad variously offered military and financial assistance, and included Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa.


United States President Woodrow Wilson declared a U.S. policy of absolute neutrality on the same day Britain declared war, 4 August, an official stance that would last until 1917 when Germany's policy of unrestricted submarine warfare - which seriously threatened America's commercial shipping (which was in any event almost entirely directed towards the Allies led by Britain and France) - forced the U.S. to finally enter the war on 6 April 1917.


Japan, honouring a military agreement with Britain, declared war on Germany on 23 August 1914. Two days later Austria-Hungary responded by declaring war on Japan.


Italy, although allied to both Germany and Austria-Hungary, was able to avoid entering the fray by citing a clause enabling it to evade its obligations to both.

In short, Italy was committed to defend Germany and Austria-Hungary only in the event of a 'defensive' war; arguing that their actions were 'offensive' she declared instead a policy of neutrality. The following year, in May 1915, she finally joined the conflict by siding with the Allies against her two former allies.


Treaties, treaties, treaties. That is the lesson of the First War. KvHagedorn, back to skool for you

[Greebe]

and in that game of chess nobody won

[KvHagedorn]

Where the hell do you get your presumtuous attitude, Goldstein?. If you had the balls to speak to people in such an offensive manner in person, I doubt you would still be among the living. Your usage of words like "stunning," "breathtaking," and "appalling" are as offensive to the English language as your puerile, bait-ridden posts are to me personally.

You are way out of line speaking in such a condescending manner to someone who has read the original documents concerned, as well as many sources other than your hateful, Germanophobically inspired, predigested pulp novel of a history revision one is taught in "skool." My opinions are gleaned from this reading, while your little mess there is simply copied from FirstWorldWar.com.

The many treaties certainly were a problem.. but it is my point that Serbian elements used the existence of these treaties to their own advantage as a means to subversively commit what amounted to terroristic acts of war against Austria who, by responding in the traditional "civilized" way, brought the treaties into play. Personally, I will never forgive the Serbs for this underhanded thuggery which ultimately brought Europe to ruination.. twice.

By the way.. since, as you have shown in other threads, you hate your own country so much, I suggest you go to the Bakaa valley and offer your services to the first Arab you meet. Be sure to use the kind of language you use here. He is sure to be impressed enough to lop off your head forthwith.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Greebe
and in that game of chess nobody won

Except for the instigating Serbs.. whose aim was fulfilled in a united Yugoslavia.. for awhile..

[Wombat]

Now, back on topic: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=32749

[candyman]

Unclean pigskin? Cool
Could not find a better punishment myself

[thop]

hehe nice idea. imo they should leave the already death in peace though.

[omegaRED]

Dont know KvH. I confess i am sympathetic to the Russians because we`re both slavic, but i dont think that plays a part in my opinion that the current government wasnt capable of doing this.
I`m not supportive of what Serbia does or have done, i just a annoyed when they get bombed in order to help the UCK which in turn leads to a war in my country. And then, nobody takes action against terrorists when they try to destabilize Macedonia (or FYROM, whichever you prefer). Then again, i guess most of the blame falls on ourselves because a year from then we include those same terrorists into our government Oh well, politics and power...

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by omegaRED
Dont know KvH. I confess i am sympathetic to the Russians because we`re both slavic, but i dont think that plays a part in my opinion that the current government wasnt capable of doing this.
I`m not supportive of what Serbia does or have done, i just a annoyed when they get bombed in order to help the UCK which in turn leads to a war in my country. And then, nobody takes action against terrorists when they try to destabilize Macedonia (or FYROM, whichever you prefer). Then again, i guess most of the blame falls on ourselves because a year from then we include those same terrorists into our government Oh well, politics and power...

I agree that it is very doubtful that it is some sort of conspiracy. These cranks cry conspiracy at everything though, so sensible people ignore them. I totally support Russia's action here, and their actions against terrorists in general.. I only wish they had supported (or at least allowed) Austrian action against the terrorists that threatened them in 1914.

That's a sad state of affairs that your government allowed the terrorists in..

Isn't Macedonia basically Bulgarian? It was certainly a mess that you folks got thrown in with the Serbs and then Yugoslavia instead.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Wombat
Now, back on topic: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=32749

Gotta love this!

[omegaRED]

Well, about us being Bulgarians... there are scientists and historians that claim that and those who claim we arent. Personally, i dont "feel" Bulgarian, nor Serb, nor ... just as a Macedonian. We may be descendents of the same nation, but a great majority of Macedonians now dont feel Bulgarian. There are very contradicting reports on whether or not we are Bulgarians, but to be honest, i dont have the knowledge to discuss the subject in depth.
And for one, Yugoslavia offered Macedonia what noone would: independency (as a Republic inside a Federation). We were lucky to declare independency from Yugoslavia without an armed conflict 11 years ago. I think if we went with Bulgaria we`d be just annexed and assimilated (Bulgaria doesnt admit Macedonians, as in the people living in Macedonia now as a nation, exist). Things are just too mixed up, everytime i think about it, i just get depressed...

About the pigskins: hehehehehe

[Wombat]

Love it? I'm kind of torn, really.

Islamic Fundamentalists: "This is a religious war against the unholy."

Russians (and others): "This is <B>not</B> a religious war, but we're going to go out of our way to desecrate you."

How can any good come out of these actions at all?

[KRSESQ]

All's fair in love and war. If they're going to use their religious beliefs to justify brutal violence against us, why shouldn't we use their same beliefs against them?

Kevin

[Wombat]

How is this using it against them? It's just an insult, not a battle tactic. Anybody that can be convinced to go in as a suicide squad only needs a little more convincing that their "righteous" actions will outweigh the treatment of their corpses. Meanwhile, the non-radicals in Chechnya (or any Muslim culture) will see the West defiling the bodies. Isn't it enough to have killed them? Naaah, let's lower ourselves another notch and show them that we don't even respect the dead.

It's not war once they're dead, it's just abuse. It doesn't help anything except fulfill someone's spiteful wishes.