Harmless...?

[Jammrock]

Originally posted by KRSESQ
Damn, Jamm...that's bad S**t.

One quick question, without (hopefully) fanning the flames...

How old was your brother when he first got involved with cigs/booze/drugs? The reason I ask is that there was a recent study (if I can find a link I'll post) that found a direct correllation between the age of the first-time user and the so-called "gateway effect." That is, the younger the first-time user is, the greater the chance that the user would go on to harder drugs. This may seem obvious, but its an important consideration in evaluating an addict for rehab.

One thing we all need to keep in mind is that individuals vary greatly in their tolerance for addictive/toxic substances. One person may smoke one cig and be hooked for life. Another (like my dad) may smoke 20 or 30 years and be able to walk away. Some can smoke pot recreationally for years with few (if any) serious side effects and be just fine if the supply dries up, while others...well, you get the picture.

I guess my point to all this is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach (pardon the cliche) is useless when dealing with problems like this. I certainly am not advocating legalizing LSD or heroin, but I think we'd make a lot more headway in the "War on Drugs" if we prioritized the problem better and stopped treating it as strictly a law-enforcement issue and started treating it as a public health issue.

(God, now I sound like some damned politician!)

Kevin

That depends of which story you believe of his. I would say he smoked his first cigarette at about 12, some alcohol I would say soon there after - he had crappy friends even back then, and we couldn't seperate them. We didn't find out he smoked until he was 18 (he is a quite elusive type). He claims that he didn't do any illegal drugs until he was 20.5.

At that point his 'girlfriend' pressured him into pot and other stuff. Once my sister (his fraternal twin...of course) hooked up with her soon to be ex-husband, all three of them got into some serious s***. My sister cleaned up before she got pregnant, but my brother and the 'ex' never really did. Just got better at hiding it from everyone else until last week.



Thank you everyone for your support. It's hard to watch family members destroy themselves in front of you, and I thank you for your support.

As for the [ex-]borther-in-law...he was half way to Montana before my sister told anyone he was gone. The males in my family (except the druggy) are very large, very strong and have no qualms with beating him to a bloody pulp.

Jammrock

[Sethos]

Jammrock,

I'm glad that things are past the crices stage, and that you at least now have some space to breath whilst things happen. You've been in my prayers, and will continue to be. Good luck and keep us updated.

~Sethos

PS. Gurm no hard feelings, I personaly just feel very strongly about the subject...

[thop]

nothing like reviving an old thread.

some of you might find this study interesting, which involves twin and cannabis (ab)use.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v289n4/rfull/joc21156.html

Results Individuals who used cannabis by age 17 years had odds of other drug use, alcohol dependence, and drug abuse/dependence that were 2.1 to 5.2 times higher than those of their co-twin, who did not use cannabis before age 17 years.

Conclusions Associations between early cannabis use and later drug use and abuse/dependence cannot solely be explained by common predisposing genetic or shared environmental factors. The association may arise from the effects of the peer and social context within which cannabis is used and obtained. In particular, early access to and use of cannabis may reduce perceived barriers against the use of other illegal drugs and provide access to these drugs.

[Gurm]

Again, it's the social structure not the drug.

The drug has NOTHING to do with it. And it's sad, but the scientists conducting that study should have made 100% CRYSTAL clear that they agreed. Instead they wibble about factors and sole dependence.

It's cause and effect.

If Activity X is almost always accompanied by Activity Y, and people who participate in Activity X (and by association in Activity Y) always experience Effect Z, you CANNOT say with ANY certainty that Activity X causes Effect Z. In fact, odds are 50/50 that Activity Y causes Effect Z.

So if you discover that people who hang out in bars drinking get lots of lung cancer... and conclude that drinking causes lung cancer... that's a bullshit conclusion. The fact is that hanging out in bars means you're inhaling lots of smoke, and secondhand smoke causes lung cancer.

See what I mean?

Like I said, it's a foregone conclusion, because yes a large majority of potheads hang out with other dopers and are part of a social group which has no respect for rules and therefore are more likely to try other things.

BUT let's not make the foolish mistake of subscribing to junk science, hmm?

- Gurm

[Rags]

The question I have is:
If pot were legal, and he started doing some other illegal drug, would that then be the "gateway drug"?

The prohibition of pot is what puts questionable characters into the equation.

Gateway drug is just a catch phrase that is easy to believe because of circumstancial evidence.

Rags

[KRSESQ]

I'm willing to accept the study at face value for now just because it seems to confirm common-sense: The younger the first-time user, the greater the chances of future abuse (drugs/alcohol/tobacco/sex--doesn't matter). One might presume that it's because younger people don't have the maturity or self-restraint or self-esteem to resist peer pressure. Once the initial resistance is broken down, abuse is more likely to follow in the early user than it is in individuals who managed to avoid the temptation to a later age.

If the results of this study hold up, and can be applied to alcohol abuse, it's almost certain to kill what's left of the movement to lower drinking ages to 18.

(ARE there any states that still have an 18-year minimum drinking age?)

Kevin

[thop]

(ARE there any states that still have an 18-year minimum drinking age?)

In Germany you can drink/buy any alcoholic beverage at 18, and beer and 16.

[KRSESQ]

Correct me if need be, but European culture has a quite different approach to alcohol. Parents generally allow children small quantities of alcohol under supervision, with meals, in celebration, etc. It's traditional (and, it could be argued, teaches responsible drinking habits). In the U.S., alcohol is seen as strictly an adult vice (emphasis on vice) to be avoided and discouraged wherever possible (TV advertising notwithstanding).

In that respect Europe seems to have a more practical and reasoned approach (and not just to alcohol).

Kevin

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by Gurm
Ok, I'm gonna post some flame bait in response.
2. Don't blame the pot. Why not blame alcohol? Or cigarettes? I mean, let's face it - virtually 100% of people who smoke pot have tried alcohol. So isn't alcohol the TRUE gateway drug? And ALMOST 100% of people who have smoked pot have tried a cigarette. So isn't nicotine the TRUE gateway drug?

You were right until a point. nowhere near 100% of people who have tried pot have tried cigarretes. But yes, alcohol is the true gateway drug, then pot, etc. Without either, we'd have less crackheads. period.

Jamm..sorry about your bro, man.

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by William
My feeling (based partly on what I've seen happen) is that it's not so much that the drug is a gateway; so much as the social environment you join partly as a result is the gateway.

That's a good point.

[Elie]

I totally sorry to hear Jamm, I hope for fast recovery.

I personally think that any drug, that alters the mind and thought process is harmfull, inlcuding pot, alchohol and so on.

Drinking and driving is a crime for a reason!

Pot is illegal for a reason!


Elie

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by Wombat
Bull. This sounds strongly reminiscient of the arguments against music like Judas Priest and Marilyn Manson.

I dunno man, his argument makes sense. When you get into something and move into a group of people that is very accepting of certain things, you're a hell of a lot more likely to raise the bar.

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by Wombat
I've been in plenty of drug-friendly environments. You still have to use your own judgment there. Just because it's suddenly okay for everyone else, does that suddenly mean you should lax your own standards? That's your own personal weakness.

Me, I've stood on my own when I had to. Never regretted it.

I agree with you here, as I've been in the same situations. But you and I are obviously different beasts from most people, and think for ourselves. Most people lack that trait and give into the ideas of the people around them.

[drslump]

@KRSESQ: you're right

I've tried lots of drugs but hell, the only drug I've been addicted to has been chocolate. Two years ago I started eating chocolate at all times. I became fat and had lots of spots in the face but even then I couldn't stop eating chocolate. Then last April, thanks to my friends and family, I realized I was an addict to sweet things and black chocolate in particular. Now I don't eat anymore, I hope one day I'll eat chocolate again normally.

What I wanted to say is that with the exception of nicotine and heroin (and maybe one or two more substances) all the other "drugs" are psychologically addictive as the people who phone continuously to the "sex phone lines" or the ones that expend all their money gambling in a casino.

I think most of those drugs should be legal. It's like when were no sexual education at school or home, lots of girls got pregnant and lots of people got sexual transfered sicknesses.
If something is legal a government can regulate and control it, but more importantly the population can be educated more easily.

PS: what are the symptoms for someone addicted to the MURC? I want to be sure I'm healthy

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by Elie
I totally sorry to hear Jamm, I hope for fast recovery.

I personally think that any drug, that alters the mind and thought process is harmless, inlcuding pot, alchohol and so on.

Drinking and driving is a crime for a reason!

Pot is illegal for a reason!


Elie

You mean HARMFUL? your supporting statements contradict your argument...