Hmm... Well I'm definitely looking forward to the upcomming Parhelia review @ [H]OCP

[FrgMstr]

Originally posted by Rags
Don't broad sweep all of us because a few can't take humor. We all know that we shouldn't judge our forums at the HOCP because of the lowest common denominator (thank god for that ).


What I would like to see in your review is you actually taking the time to play these games on the card for a few days, and get yourself squared on it. You know, spend some time with it, and do a seat of the pants comparision by doing the same with your GF4. I would like that.

Rags

Of course the sqeeky wheels always like to get attention and talk tough.

Actual game playing was something I did for our Ti launch and I think that we were the only site that did that. While spending a few days is usually not a luxury we are going to have (hell, who am I kidding, that is not going to happen), we did take a solid eight hours and test the equipment in gameplay, to hell with the FPS! I agree that quantitative data in the form of FPS sucks, but when you move past that you get into the subjective. And that seems to cause more problems than anything now days.

Playing games and giving our thoughts and impressions is something we will continue to do. Thanks for the 411!

[Rags]

Originally posted by FrgMstr
[B]

Of course the sqeeky wheels always like to get attention and talk tough.

It's universal. Just be aware that we have a rather full and diverse community of users, and we are, by no means, a fanboy site. MURC is every bit as critical as other sites, maybe even more, but the criticism usually comes with good reason and well thought out ideals. Not everyone here is Matrox or die...that's what I am trying to get at. MURC is just like it says in its name Matrox Users Resource Centre, it's a place where people who happen to use Matrox stuff can get help, tips, tricks, and information.

Actual game playing was something I did for our Ti launch and I think that we were the only site that did that. While spending a few days is usually not a luxury we are going to have (hell, who am I kidding, that is not going to happen), we did take a solid eight hours and test the equipment in gameplay, to hell with the FPS! I agree that quantitative data in the form of FPS sucks, but when you move past that you get into the subjective. And that seems to cause more problems than anything now days.

Playing games and giving our thoughts and impressions is something we will continue to do. Thanks for the 411!

It's a good measure when actually using the hardware (and it's also a better measure IMHO) for what it was intended for. Benchmarks are only out there because anyone can make claims on how well something performs, and it is rather subjective and difficult to quantify the differences in a medium that is easy for the average reader to understand.

But to give a mix of both, that would be cool (and I do realize you have done that before, ATI Rage 128 Maxx, anyone ). Because simply popping in a card and running a line of benchmarks and then showing the benchmarks is a very incomplete analysis in my view.

Rags

[FrgMstr]

Originally posted by Rags
Because simply popping in a card and running a line of benchmarks and then showing the benchmarks is a very incomplete analysis in my view.

Rags

Can I get a "hallelujah" for brother Rags?

What we have here is an industry still in its infancy. We are not yet even beginning to walk; we are just learning how to roll over. We are still traveling through what I like to think of as the 3dfx gravity belt and are not quite clear of it yet, although I think we will be in 18 to 36 months from now for sure.

We will get to a point that frame rate is secondary or even a tertiary thought when buying PC video equipment. After that what do you have? "Is it API compliant?" and "How does it look?" And of course you know LOOKS is going to be what it is all about then and what looks good to me does not necessarily look good to you. So all these guys that know nothing beyond FPS are going to be caught with their johnsons in their hands.

So I see it as being up to us to build enough experience and reader trust between here and there to still keep a handle on things.

I have of course painted this with a very broad brush, and I think I will be pretty close to the facts when they come about. Even if I am wrong, it is going to change and change a lot.

[Rags]

Originally posted by FrgMstr


Can I get a "hallelujah" for brother Rags?

What we have here is an industry still in its infancy. We are not yet even beginning to walk; we are just learning how to roll over. We are still traveling through what I like to think of as the 3dfx gravity belt and are not quite clear of it yet, although I think we will be in 18 to 36 months from now for sure.

We will get to a point that frame rate is secondary or even a tertiary thought when buying PC video equipment. After that what do you have? "Is it API compliant?" and "How does it look?" And of course you know LOOKS is going to be what it is all about then and what looks good to me does not necessarily look good to you. So all these guys that know nothing beyond FPS are going to be caught with their johnsons in their hands.

So I see it as being up to us to build enough experience and reader trust between here and there to still keep a handle on things.

I have of course painted this with a very broad brush, and I think I will be pretty close to the facts when they come about. Even if I am wrong, it is going to change and change a lot.

I don't think you are wrong on this. I believe you are very correct. FPS won't be an issue in the future. As good as programmers are at building fluff and adding complexity, they still are a ways behind the graphics card makers in the level of progression IMHO. This will mean that the cards will be so silly fast in speed, that all additional efforts towards graphics cards will be for making photorealistic gaming, and you have to admit, all three players out right now are doing things to add to the mix even Matrox ( who was completely silent for 3 years in the gaming market......). I think Matrox sometimes goes farther, and I would like that if they would push the performance envelope even farther at the same time.

Rags

[Oboy]

"hallelujah"

And Welcome to the MURC Kyle!

Got to LOVE them COOL Cases, I do!

Oboy

[Mediaman]

FrgMstr,

I am not one to argue you on the finer points of the Parhelia. You head up a well respected site. I cannot argue you on your extensive knowledge of hardware either.

I have to say that I disagree with your conduct towards Matrox in the recent Parhelia launch. While I do agree that your reviews, on the most part, are extensive and serve the FPS hungry community extremely well....but your manipulation of facts disappointed me. You should have exhibited a greater level of professionalism if you want to encourage "reader trust" rather than decipals. Realize that I do not want to spark a "Kyle bashing" session nor do I want to get into a debate of knowlege.

If FPS is what your readers want then I do agree that the Parhelia will not deliver. Perhaps like you, I wish that readers would not scan ahead to the benchmarks and conclusion page to make their decision...I wish they would read entire reviews. The Parhelia was never promised by Matrox to be a GeForce killer.

But I digress. I found your presentation of your story with Matrox surrounding [H] not receiving a Parhelia card very one sided and, while I understand your position, not very fair to your readers. They follow you blindly and in this case they are following you not knowing the facts. You may not have legally slandered Matrox during the launch...but it was obvious you tried to spin bad press due to [H] being "snubbed". No matter how you deny it...that is obvious.

The Parhelia is intended for another niche market beyond benchmarks. I agree that it is a rather expensive card compared to the ATI and nVidia counterparts but when you compare it to cards that are double and triple its price, such as Wildcat and beyond, how does it measure up then for peformance vs. value? When it is reviewed in the light it was intended to be...how then does its value measure up? With the Parhelia there were no infinite loop errors. It peformed with incredible stability out of the box. Regardless I am not proclaiming the Parhelia to be the answer. My wish is for readers to know the facts before their decisions and you did not present all the facts.

It may not seem apparent but my comments are with respect. May I remind you that you were not entirely truthful with your disclosure of your information.

I will not answer trite challenges to "prove it"...I merely offer a perspective that the Parhelia and Matrox should be looked upon without the benchmark and political goggles in place.


My apologies to others for diverting this thread into a new direction.

[FrgMstr]

Originally posted by Mediaman
FrgMstr,

My apologies to others for diverting this thread into a new direction.

Hardly a new direction, this has already been fully discussed here and deleted by the thread starter. If you care to see my comments on it over at our forums, page 10 of this thread is a good place to start.

http://www.hardforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439203&perpage=15&pagenumber=10

[CHHAS]

This FPS won't be an issue in the future kinda reminds of a certain someone saying that noone would ever need more than 640kb of memory

[Indiana]

So what about TVOut and DVD/video playback testing.
I'm quite interested in this because a friends GF3 just delivers lower quality than my Radeon does, introducing ever so slight stutters/jaggies/blockiness. If the Parhelia is good at this it might be for me, if it is not, I will stay clear of it.
This is as important to me as the gaming speed as I think that the Parhelia while being disappointing still will be "fast enough".

Some tests about 2D quality would be fine, too.

[Helevitia]

Greetings Kyle,

Welcome to the forums Feel free and stop in from time to time.

Dave

[xortam]

Originally posted by Indiana
So what about TVOut and DVD/video playback testing. ...

I've been asking that question for a while now. No one (including the BBs) has addressed this much.

[Helevitia]

Originally posted by xortam
I've been asking that question since the launch. No one (including the BBs) has addressed this much.

Maybe some big nasty bug going on nobody wants to discuss. Maybe they are waiting for the bug to be fixed before commenting? Just a guess though....

Dave

[xortam]

I edited the time period in my post since I think I've been asking since the chip announcement. This area hasn't been discussed much. The HDTV mention got me curious but apparently nothing special has been done to exploit those TVs/projectors. The conspiracy side of me would speculate that there has been some problems in this area but I think its more of nothing significant has been done to improve this area. I believe Haig did mention that there was only minimal improvement in DVDMax quality.

[DuRaNgO]

Welcome, [H]ardman

I've enjoyed <i>most</i> of what you have written
I sure can't wait to see YOUR P card after you do a little tweakin'

[Joel]

I am with you on that one Ant.

There is a difference though. Ant didn't carry on like a baby about it and then get all high and mighty claiming that the only reason that Matrox didn't send him one is because they were afraid to let him test it.

And that 25-35 age group that you are talking are also starting to realize that there is more to a video than fps and that there is more to gaming and PCs than Q3.

Joel