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Bowling for Columbine - revisited

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  • #46
    Hey, I just read something interesting.

    Did you know that 1/3 of all Germans under the age of 30 (that's 33% for those of you math-challenged) believe that the United States Government purposely destroyed the WTC and Pentagon on September 11?

    That's not a joke. That's not a fake number. That's not "arabs who already are prejudiced against Israel". That's GERMAN YOUTH.

    And do you know WHY they believe that? Because of crackpots like Moore who take things out of context and LIE TO PEOPLE.

    I don't CARE how good his message is. I don't CARE if he makes some people think. I JUST DON'T CARE, because he's taking the easily misled (people who will go sit through crap like that in a movie theater) and "helping" them to be misled EVEN FURTHER.

    I don't CARE if you have a good point about the government and the media and all that happy horse shit. You think you can make that BETTER by causing people (dumb people, but let's face it that's 75% of the WORLD dammit) to believe OTHER things that aren't true?

    You want people to be angry at the decline of our society? There are lots of ways to do that WITHOUT making Charlton Heston, who is an otherwise UPSTANDING citizen, into a criminal with words he didn't even say!

    You want people to get upset at the media? You can do that WITHOUT making up numbers, distorting facts, and drawing connections that just aren't there.

    Zokes, I understand your point. But you're refusing to understand mine - that no matter WHAT the purpose, lying to the public and making them think untrue things is WORSE than whatever you're trying to save them from.

    MUCH MUCH WORSE.

    It's worse than apathy. It's worse than whatever you feel the government is doing to them. It's worse than the media.

    Causing people to believe things you KNOW AREN'T TRUE is worse than just about anything.

    This is why I don't like marketing departments, or the people in them. I think they all deserve to die a fiery death in the passenger seat of a Pinto. (Safe car! Honest!)

    This is why I don't like politicians, who make a living lying to people.

    It's also why I don't like pseudo-intellectual BLOWHARDS like Moore (and Mutz on his bad days) who make a big show of being sympathetic to the plight of the common man, in order to push their own agenda at the expense of the public.

    Moore HURTS PEOPLE. He hurts Charlton Heston directly. He hurts those of us who'd like to NOT have our 2nd amendment taken away. And he hurts the public by feeding them YET ANOTHER piece of misinformation and slanderous lies.

    It's bad enough that the government does it, that the media does it, and that big corporations do it. But when people who claim to be AGAINST those big 3 entities ALSO do it... it's flat out inexcusable. There is NO cause "just" enough to make it excusable.

    Moore's Oscar should be revoked. He should be sued for slander and libel, and he should be forced to get up on stage at NEXT year's Oscars and apologize to the people he has hurt.

    - Gurm
    The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

    I'm the least you could do
    If only life were as easy as you
    I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
    If only life were as easy as you
    I would still get screwed

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by ZokesPro
      Gurm, I'm a victim. I don't care.
      See how much fun this is? We should all practice this!
      The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

      I'm the least you could do
      If only life were as easy as you
      I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
      If only life were as easy as you
      I would still get screwed

      Comment


      • #48
        Moore says in BFC:
        1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorist to kill soviets. CIA give them $3 billion.

        1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

        1983: White House secretely give Iran weapons to kill Iraquis.

        1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.

        1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

        1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out ot be making aspirin.

        1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq ona weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 iraqui children die from bombing and sanctions.

        2000-01: U.S. gives Thaliban-rules Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".

        Sept. 11, 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 poeple.
        I purposely left out a few quotes cause they don't really apply, other than that these are DIRECT quotes from his movie, un-modified quotes.

        Originally posted by Gurm

        Did you know that 1/3 of all Germans under the age of 30 (that's 33% for those of you math-challenged) believe that the United States Government purposely destroyed the WTC and Pentagon on September 11?
        This is what your referring to when you speak of the German youth right Gurm? (BFC quote above, although it doesn't directly say that the United States Governmen purposely destroyed the WTC)

        I indeed do see what you mean by Moore spreading his lies, slander and deception. But as for me? I don't know what to believe in all of this. So no, I'm not refusing to understand what your saying. So my next question is, how much of it IS true? Does anybody HONESTLY know the answer?

        I sure hells don't.

        Off Topic:
        I also heard the the pentagon attack was staged, that they purposely blew up a part of the building for effect (in relation to the WTC attack), but I don't remember who told me this and where he/she got this info, and I don't believe it either.
        Titanium is the new bling!
        (you heard from me first!)

        Comment


        • #49
          After following this all with interest for the past week, I have one or two observations which may have already been touched on:

          @ taz: Somewhere in your rather longwinded, rambling post, you make a noteworthy point: We are all products of what we've learned in school, experienced in life, been taught by our parents, been exposed to through the popular media, and so forth. Everyone's personal beliefs are filtered through this witch's brew of nature/nurture, which results in your own personal outlook, prejudice, etc. NO ONE is immune, even those who consider themselves "free thinkers." Everything you think, say or do is a distillation of everything you've learned, read, or experienced. Since no two people have the same upbringing, education, or experiences, no two people are going to have the same outlook.

          In a way it reminds me of a kid I worked with once, who held college in general in contempt. "All they want to do is teach you what to think." I laughed at him. "If you went to college expecting them to teach you what to think, no wonder you went away disappointed. The purpose of college isn't to teach you WHAT to think, it's to teach you HOW to think." This kid was without a doubt one of the dumbest guys I've ever met, yet he had the nerve to hold Rush Limbaugh in contempt. I couldn't help laughing at him.

          (Don't get the impression I'm some kind of dittohead. On the rare occation I do listen, I find Rush mildly entertaining. Nothing more.)

          As far as all of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9-11 are concerned, I find it amazing that people are more inclined to believe complex conspiracies than they are to believe simple truths.

          Scenario one: A handful of dedicated, determined fanatics using makeshift weapons and lots of intimidation, manage to take control of four largely unprotected passenger airliners and turn them into guided missiles, or

          Scenario two: A shadowy multinational cabal of American military/industrial leaders, the CIA, and the Massad, under orders from the White House and/or the International Jewish Conspiracy and/or the illuminati, using complex high tech means, take remote control of four civilian airliners (which may or may not have passengers in them) and crash them into predetermined targets and/or set off explosions in key locations to make it LOOK like passenger aircraft were used as guided missiles. (Did I miss anything?)

          The point I'm trying to make is, no matter what news source you choose, that source will have an agenda of its own that you MUST examine in order to see the motivation behind their reporting. This is obvious, of course, but so many forget this simple fact that it's downright ridiculous sometimes. Get some of your news from Fox, get some from MSNBC, get some from Yellow Times, get some from Pravda or Al Jezeera, for that matter. What you choose to conclude in the end is shaped by the forces that shaped YOU.

          As for Bowling For Columbine, I vote Satire. With satire, all rules are out the window.

          Kevin

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by KRSESQ


            As for Bowling For Columbine, I vote Satire. With satire, all rules are out the window.

            Kevin
            Then it shouldn't be classified as a documentary.
            Gigabyte P35-DS3L with a Q6600, 2GB Kingston HyperX (after *3* bad pairs of Crucial Ballistix 1066), Galaxy 8800GT 512MB, SB X-Fi, some drives, and a Dell 2005fpw. Running WinXP.

            Comment


            • #51
              IMO people at positions are not best.

              Just like Moore is perhaps not the best person (satire) to be the champion of American "left" (I hate using word left here as it IMO), so it's also sad that GWB is best what American right could have come up with.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Gurm
                Hey, I just read something interesting.

                Did you know that 1/3 of all Germans under the age of 30 (that's 33% for those of you math-challenged) believe that the United States Government purposely destroyed the WTC and Pentagon on September 11?

                That's not a joke. That's not a fake number. That's not "arabs who already are prejudiced against Israel". That's GERMAN YOUTH.
                No it's not.. that's just saying that 33% of "Germans" under 30 aren't really Germans at all, but muslim foreigners who have been let into the country to take over the place because:

                1) REAL Germans are too overcome with greed and self-hatred to reproduce.

                2) Greedy pricks who run industry say they "need immigrants" to keep up the labor force and to hell with culture and civil peace when there's a buck to be made.

                3) They would be nazis if they didn't let foreigners all come in and rape them in the ass.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Ah! Finally someone read and understood before revoking my comments.

                  As you say Kevin, it's right that the more different sources you have, the more accurate what we think will be. That's why I looked not only at Moore's BFC. That's why I took the time and effort to talk about a dozen different sources in my very long post. Maybe I should look at some TV channels but I am not a TV fan and I don't have cable yet (I'll have it soon though since I work for a cable company) so I'll look at these too every once in a while.

                  You're also right about the fact that he doesn't follow any rules in his movie and that is so easy to put out some clips of different people back to back and make them say what they didn't say but, at the end of it, consider this Gurm :
                  Originally posted by Gurm
                  If I walk into a room filled with people and say "My name is Shiela, I'm a 47-year-old woman, and I just entered menopause!" then nobody is going to listen to a ****ING word I say after that, because I'm clearly lying.
                  That is totally right but change this for that : "My name is Shiela, I'm a 47 year-old woman, I just entered menopause and I am going to shoot you all right here right now!" (with a rifle in both hands)

                  Now, do you still care about the fact that I'm lying, about the fact that I am not a woman, my name's not Shiela, etc.? No, I think you would think about the fact that I want to shoot you so, satire or not, lying or not, decieving or not, there are some facts in BFC and that's what I got out of it.

                  This is my way of showing you that I completely understand your point, but even if somebody is crazy or dumb or lying, I will still see what he as to say before saying it's ALL bullshit like you tried to tell me from the beginning. I think that's also why we thought you were not understanding our point... Now that (I think) you will, I think we don't need to argue if what he says is lying or decieving or the truth. Let's just move on, I think we are starting to waste our time on this thread right now, don't you?

                  Matt.
                  Why SysAdmins like Unix?
                  unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Are we wasting our time? Not really. I simply maintain that since you can't tell what is and isn't truth, and since the MAIN THRUST is a series of carefully constructed lies and deceptions, that you HAVE TO dismiss the source outright, and/or class it as a satire, remove it from the category of "documentary", and relegate it to "gee that makes you think but it's bullshit" status.

                    It's a test my dad taught me long ago.

                    If half the things someone tells you are clearly lies, the other half could be the biggest truths in the world, but you just can't take that person seriously anymore, or listen to anything they say.

                    If only 10% of what someone tells you are lies, you STILL have to be VERY CAREFUL when listening to them.

                    Since Moore clearly falls into the 50% or greater category...

                    - Gurm
                    The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                    I'm the least you could do
                    If only life were as easy as you
                    I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                    If only life were as easy as you
                    I would still get screwed

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Gurm
                      Are we wasting our time? Not really. I simply maintain that since you can't tell what is and isn't truth, and since the MAIN THRUST is a series of carefully constructed lies and deceptions, that you HAVE TO dismiss the source outright, and/or class it as a satire, remove it from the category of "documentary", and relegate it to "gee that makes you think but it's bullshit" status.

                      It's a test my dad taught me long ago.

                      If half the things someone tells you are clearly lies, the other half could be the biggest truths in the world, but you just can't take that person seriously anymore, or listen to anything they say.

                      If only 10% of what someone tells you are lies, you STILL have to be VERY CAREFUL when listening to them.

                      Since Moore clearly falls into the 50% or greater category...

                      - Gurm
                      how do you come along with politicians then?

                      but what I really wanted to say: Moore himself responded to some of this accusitions on his site

                      The oddest of all the smears thrown at "Bowling for Columbine" is this one:

                      "The film depicts NRA president Charlton Heston giving a speech near Columbine; he actually gave it a year later and 900 miles away. The speech he did give is edited to make conciliatory statements sound like rudeness."

                      Um, yeah, that's right! I made it up! Heston never went there! He never said those things!

                      Or....

                      The Truth: Heston took his NRA show to Denver and did and said exactly what we recounted. From the end of my narration setting up Heston's speech in Denver, with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy. But don't take my word – read the transcript of his whole speech. Heston devotes the entire speech to challenging the Denver mayor and mocking the mayor's pleas that the NRA "don't come here." Far from deliberately editing the film to make Heston look worse, I chose to leave most of this out and not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.

                      Why are these gun nuts upset that their brave NRA leader's words are in my film? You'd think they would be proud of the things he said. Except, when intercut with the words of a grieving father (whose son died at Columbine and happened to be speaking in a protest that same weekend Heston was at the convention center), suddenly Charlton Heston doesn't look so good does he? Especially to the people of Denver (and, the following year, to the people of Flint) who were still in shock over the tragedies when Heston showed up.

                      As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image – hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone.". Are they now embarrassed by this sick, repulsive image and the words that accompany it?

                      I've also been accused of making up the gun homicide counts in the United States and various countries around the world. That is, like all the rest of this stuff, a bald-face lie. Every statistic in the film is true. They all come directly from the government. Here are the facts, right from the sources:

                      The U.S. figure of 11,127 gun deaths comes from a report from the Center for Disease Control. Japan's gun deaths of 39 was provided by the National Police Agency of Japan; Germany: 381 gun deaths from Bundeskriminalamt (German FBI); Canada: 165 gun deaths from Statistics Canada, the governmental statistics agency; United Kingdom: 68 gun deaths, from the Centre for Crime and Justice studies in Britain; Australia: 65 gun deaths from the Australian Institute of Criminology; France: 255 gun deaths, from the International Journal of Epidemiology.
                      mfg
                      wulfman
                      Last edited by Wulfman; 19 October 2003, 05:27.
                      "Perhaps they communicate by changing colour? Like those sea creatures .."
                      "Lobsters?"
                      "Really? I didn't know they did that."
                      "Oh yes, red means help!"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                        No it's not.. that's just saying that 33% of "Germans" under 30 aren't really Germans at all, but muslim foreigners who have been let into the country to take over the place because:

                        1) REAL Germans are too overcome with greed and self-hatred to reproduce.

                        2) Greedy pricks who run industry say they "need immigrants" to keep up the labor force and to hell with culture and civil peace when there's a buck to be made.

                        3) They would be nazis if they didn't let foreigners all come in and rape them in the ass.
                        Were the hell did you people learn to reply like this???

                        I'm very glad Americans can't vote over here...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Yes Wulfman, but he still didn't account for the fact that in the middle of the speech that Moore put into his mockumentary that Heston completely changes clothes. And that he spliced in the "cold dead hands" part from a completely different speech.

                          He also doesn't take into his account that he spliced Heston's speech to make his speech sound like he is completely defiant against Denver. However, if you read the full speech he says that they canceled all the meetings but one. And then goes on to basically say they are excersizing their rights to assembly and free speech and holding their one required by law meeting anyway.

                          Which in the end makes that portion slanderous yellow journalism. Which makes it a white lie at the least, a full blown lie at the most.

                          Jammrock
                          “Inside every sane person there’s a madman struggling to get out”
                          –The Light Fantastic, Terry Pratchett

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Jammrock
                            Yes Wulfman, but he still didn't account for the fact that in the middle of the speech that Moore put into his mockumentary that Heston completely changes clothes. And that he spliced in the "cold dead hands" part from a completely different speech.
                            As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image – hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone.".
                            mfg
                            wulfman
                            "Perhaps they communicate by changing colour? Like those sea creatures .."
                            "Lobsters?"
                            "Really? I didn't know they did that."
                            "Oh yes, red means help!"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Lemme demonstrate AGAIN, since you clearly don't get it.

                              As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, it is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image. I merely supplied an image crafted for the media, and sometimes shout."
                              Isn't this fun?

                              You can clip up ANYONE's speeches to make them say ANYTHING you want. Doesn't mean it's not slander. Slander is a major offense in the media. It gets people disbarred from working in the media FOR LIFE. It's no wonder Moore doesn't want to fess up to it - it would effectively end his career.

                              The fact that Heston doesn't sue him for libel/slander shows that Heston is the bigger man. If _I_ were Chuck, I'd sue him, I'd win, and I'd make sure Moore never worked in this town again, so to speak.

                              Are you following? It doesn't matter that Heston "said all those things". What matters is that he didn't say them in the order Moore says he said them in, or when Moore claims he said them.

                              The entire NRA thing was a HUGE fabrication. Massive. Intended to make the NRA look very very bad, when in reality they were being as nice as an organization like that can possibly be.

                              It's unforgivably bad journalism. It's called lying. It's called slander.

                              - Gurm
                              The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                              I'm the least you could do
                              If only life were as easy as you
                              I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                              If only life were as easy as you
                              I would still get screwed

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Hmm, my questions go un-answered...
                                Titanium is the new bling!
                                (you heard from me first!)

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