Don't you love Jesus?

[Jessterw]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:3-5)

Note that the context is in regards to idols/images that are created with the intention of being worshipped. That is the Christian view, save for a few who believe as the Jews do, of what is a graven image. We don't worship Santa in any form, so it doesn't apply.

[schmosef]

I already did that. Don't get all pissy.

I'm getting pissy because you're being intentionally offensive.

You are off base because neither I no anyone else I have even known has prayed to Santa, and certainly not as if he were the Almighty, nor have they thought of him as anyone other than a mythical kindly old gentleman who embodies the joy of giving.

We've already established on this forum that your life experience is not one to judge the world by.

I know lots of christians that pray directly to saints and i've asked them about it and they just "hadn't thought about it before". These are church going people who should have been taught better but admit that they've been confused by church service.

As for praying to Santa Claus... You're presupposing a firm belief in monotheism so that only the "almighty" would be one worth praying to. So many kids in Canada write letters to Santa that the Canadian postal service makes it a free service. You can post a letter with Santa's address on it and the postal service will send it to a group of volunteers to will: a) respond to your letter; and b) send your letter to your parents so that they know what you wished for.

This is a prayer to an omnipotent god (not necessarily the Almighty):

Dear Santa, As you know, I've been a good Christian this year. Please use your magic powers to give me X. Bless my mommy and daddy.

[Jessterw]

Come off it KvH. Somehow, you're put off by my questions and you're just trying to throw things back in my face. You're not being constructive at all. The Star of David symbol doesn't exist in nature. It's not even close to something that could be considered a graven image because: a) it's not an image of anything; and b) there is no god or person that is or was ever believed to be manifest by it.[...]

I'd argue that it could be seen as representative of a star, and how is someone in the future who has no knowledge of its origins to know it didn't embody such things, just as you claim the fish symbol does.

This part of the discussion should be over, both sides have been thoroughly explained and now were are arguing over semantics and if's.


Again with Santa. We have the same sort of service here in many parts of the US. But a letter to Santa is not a prayer, and even if you consider it as such, there is no worshiping of him happening. Kids know Santa isn't a god - at most he is just extra talented with magic.

[KvHagedorn]

Maybe you don't know what a graven image is?

No one thinks that the graven image is the god itself!!!

It's a token to the god. A way of pleasing the god. And a channel to get the god's attention. Sometimes, they may have believed that the god in question have magic properties to the graven image. But no one believed that the god itself was contained in it.

The Hebrew who made the golden calf didn't think that they had "made a god". They made a graven image that was a common manifestation of some local god, El I'd guess.

Now, here is the Commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Now, what does this really mean? It's a rhetorical question, because I'm asking "what does this mean to you?" Does it condemn all art? Painting of landscapes? Certainly the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, with its depiction of God Himself, would displease Him. Seperately, God commands not to bow down and worship these things. He might also be referring to mammon (that is, material things) as something one should not worship or serve. It's something we could discuss for years.

One thing I do find interesting.. only five years after Michelangelo finished the Sistine Chapel ceiling, Luther was posting his Ninety-five Theses. Was Luther himself an embodiment of God's displeasure?

[schmosef]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:3-5)

Note that the context is in regards to idols/images that are created with the intention of being worshipped. That is the Christian view, save for a few who believe as the Jews do, of what is a graven image. We don't worship Santa in any form, so it doesn't apply.

You don't think that kids serve Santa?

So when they get all nice and respectful around December that's in Jesus's honour?

[Nowhere]

Speaking of graven images, some Jews (especially religious ones) do have graven images.
A well known one is the Rabbi of Lubavitch - Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson who died and who's followers still believe to be the messiah (riiight... He'll raise from his grave like in the evil-dead series and be some kind of a zombie-messiah!)
...

Hmm...I must say that would be gladly welcomed by me twist from the usuall way of things.

[KvHagedorn]

I'm getting pissy because you're being intentionally offensive.

We've already established on this forum that your life experience is not one to judge the world by.

I am in no way being intentionally offensive. However, you are being arrogant and talking down to people as though you alone have the answers to all things, to which I do take offense.

And your last comment is pure and total bullshit, and utterly offensive as well. No one has been able to invalidate my life experience here. Many of you huff and puff and hem and haw about things I say, yet you can't really refute them as totally invalid, because they aren't. I challenge every conventional point of view I see that needs challenging, because conventional thought is not thought AT ALL. And majority does not rule in argument.

[Jessterw]

You don't think that kids serve Santa?

So when they get all nice and respectful around December that's in Jesus's honour?

They don't do it in his honour either. They do it because they know they will be acquiring gifts. Not all kids who celebrate Christmas are Christians either, so does it matter how they feel about Santa? You're making something out of nothing, that just doesn't apply.

Now please drop this incessant ranting about Santa. Christians do not worship him.

[Umfriend]

The way we had it taught in school (history class) is that the protestants do indeed consider images of G'sus as idolatry. They use the cross as a symbol alright, but not with the body of a man hanging on it. Course, this class is biased by the variety of Dutch protestant streams but I think for most if not all this idea holds. They considered the use of images (incluiding G'sus) as a corruption of faith by the RCC (in a way comparable to how the Romans always had room for a few more Gods to accomodate a new group of people) and wanted to return to the, can I say it like this, source?

Not that different perhaps from the karmalites (??) vs normal jewry perhaps?

Anyway, as an atheist I do so wonder what all the fuss is about.

[schmosef]

Now, here is the Commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Now, what does this really mean? It's a rhetorical question, because I'm asking "what does this mean to you?" Does it condemn all art? Painting of landscapes? Certainly the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, with its depiction of God Himself, would displease Him. Seperately, God commands not to bow down and worship these things. He might also be referring to mammon (that is, material things) as something one should not worship or serve. It's something we could discuss for years.

One thing I do find interesting.. only five years after Michelangelo finished the Sistine Chapel ceiling, Luther was posting his Ninety-five Theses. Was Luther himself an embodiment of God's displeasure?

These are some good thoughts KvH.

I would include the images on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel as falling under the category of things verboten by the second commandment. This is exactly what I was asking about.

It's not that anyone today is necessarily worshiping them. But some time in the future, who knows. Moreover, the commandment is there, it's not for us to find a tight interpretation that allows us a loophole.

I've already said that God's true intent is unknown to us. I've been explaining the standard Jewish interpretation.

The article that JW linked had some interesting ideas. It said that Catholics believe the rule was against images that were worshiped, not just any image that could be worshiped. It used the Cheribum as an example of what would otherwise be considered a graven image. I've done some googling into that issue and haven't found a satisfying Jewish explanation for them yet. I'll ask some of my more scholarly friends about this.

To answer your question more directly. I don't believe that just any old image should be considered graven. Just the ones that could easily cause someone to get confused.

I know people who pray to saints. I know that kids pray (maybe I'm using a loose definition) to Santa. Nowhere, it seems, knows what I'm talking about.

Classical Judaism did forbid all images of nature, including landscapes. Jewish art tended to be tile and cloth mosaics and intricately carved lamps and candlabras.

The Islamic view on graven images is much closer to the original Jewish belief. Even today they start riots for publishing pictures of Mohamad. Although modern Judasim is more permissive, a statue of moses would be improper in a Jewish setting.

[schmosef]

I am in no way being intentionally offensive. However, you are being arrogant and talking down to people as though you alone have the answers to all things, to which I do take offense.

And your last comment is pure and total bullshit, and utterly offensive as well. No one has been able to invalidate my life experience here. Many of you huff and puff and hem and haw about things I say, yet you can't really refute them as totally invalid, because they aren't. I challenge every conventional point of view I see that needs challenging, because conventional thought is not thought AT ALL. And majority does not rule in argument.

And yet your basis for calling me off base was that you'd not experienced it? Nice.

[schmosef]

They don't do it in his honour either. They do it because they know they will be acquiring gifts. Not all kids who celebrate Christmas are Christians either, so does it matter how they feel about Santa? You're making something out of nothing, that just doesn't apply.

Now please drop this incessant ranting about Santa. Christians do not worship him.

I'm not "ranting" about Santa.

JW, don't you think that you're being a little defensive? And perhaps, as I said before, paranoid as to my motivations?

I'm just asking questions.

If you really think that the meaning of Christmas hasn't changed over time due to the influence of Santa Claus, then so be it. I'd have to disagree.

[Nowhere]

schmosef, so in case of Judaism this is this "asumming" thing that you mentioned in one thread about the kosher? Beeing carefull to not assume something, just to be safe?

[schmosef]

you are being arrogant and talking down to people as though you alone have the answers to all things

All I've got is questions, KvH.

Maybe you should take a breath and ask yourself why your so emotionally wrapped up in this.

I'm not trying to invalidate Christianity. I'm trying to see if modern Christian practice is actually in line with Christian doctrine.

[schmosef]

schmosef, so in case of Judaism this is this "asumming" thing that you mentioned in one thread about the kosher? Beeing carefull to not assume something, just to be safe?

Sorry Nowhere, you're reference is too vague. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please be more clear.