And another War ....

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Joel, i think i`m not insulting anyone, nor was my intention to do so. I just wanted to hear some oppinions on this matter.</font>

I wasn't speaking to you specfically. I just know where these conversations can go.

As for the US, I can feel with windigo. If anyone has a right to be pissed off it should be the Native Americans. IMO they have been mistreated, as a group, worse than any African-American or whatever hyphenated American has a right to claim. But they have managed IMO to overcome this and try to live as one with their fellow man.

We all breath the same air. We all drink the same water. And we all bleed red so why do we have to go on killing each other in the name of religion or over a piece of land that only causes futher division? Makes no sense to me sometimes. Oh well.

Joel



[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 06 March 2001).]

[GinoCyber]

Understanding a war started is like trying to understand a woman on pms. Don't bother, just live with it

Ciao

[Bixler]

Damn, If only you Italians could get a hold on your love lives.

Good thoughts Gino.

[Gurm]

I don't mean to denigrate the plight of the Native American. PLEASE don't take this the wrong way... but... TRY to see this from the point of view of the Americans. Then at the end, when you're done being thoroughly outraged, I'll try to explain where this is going.

You didn't want the land.

I'm not justifying our behavior, which was reprehensible. But you gave it up freely, for some cheap liquor and shiny beads. Then when you realized that we actually intended to LIVE there, and not just wander around aimlessly hunting buffalo for food, you started raiding our towns and waging war against us.

Have any Native Americans ever stopped to consider what would have happened if they HADN'T sided with the French (never an intelligent move in war!) against us?

Ok, I'm really rusty on specifics of early American history (and it's 1AM here). But I'll stop there. MUCH of the suffering of the Native American _can_ be shown to be a direct result of their own action (or inaction).

Now that you're completely angry with me...

What I was trying to do here is show how there are two sides to every story. Try to understand both sides. Then make a decision as to who was right.

In this particular instance, all my posturing up above is only valid if you can get past the whole "we tricked you into giving the land away" bit. Which of course you can't (neither can I).

So in the case of Israel, for example... it's EASY to sympathize with the "Palestinians" (I use quotation marks because no Arab ever referred to himself as a "Palestinian" until the early 1980's) if you can overlook several facts of their existence... (that the other arabs don't want them, which is why they are homeless... that the UN granted sovereignty to Israel, and that it wasn't their land in the first place).

Now, how does this apply to Macedonia/Yugoslavia/etc.?

Very simply - world opinion is shaped by news bites. Foreign policy of any given industrialized nation is formed by the populace, inasmuch as the president/prime minister/leader cannot do something which REALLY pisses his/her people off without losing his/her job.

So, all a given group of people has to do is insist that they are right long enough, and get enough people in the press and media to believe it, and all of a sudden, according to NATO and the various world governments... it IS so.

Does it make it right? No. Does it make it true? No.

How do I _really_ feel about the whole situation in that particular part of the world? Mixed. Part of me feels terrible for the truly innocent people who are having families, villages, and lives torn apart. Part of me, however, feels that it's NOT OUR PROBLEM. We shouldn't have encouraged the rebels in the first place, and REALLY shouldn't be encouraging them now.

Ok, I just realized how horribly long this is. And I'm sure in the morning I'll read it and think I was drunk (I'm not, for a change). And I'm sure that a certain group of European extremists will read it and HUGELY misinterpret what I've written. Oh well.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Wombat]

Except that the American Indians didn't have a concept of land ownership. You can't enter a contract that you don't understand.

Although, the Indians weren't the first here either. See the Kennewick Man, and others.

[Gurm]

That was the point of my fictitious argument. We tricked them, knowing full well that they had no concept of land ownership. But if you overlook that fact, then they can be considered the aggressors. It's very convenient that nobody was taught about that until the past few decades.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Gurm]

Hey I always liked the group Extreme's view on it.

Three sides to every story - Yours, Mine, and the Truth.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Alec]

Good point...

[alessandro]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by omegaRED:

Greece : They dont deny the existance of Macedonians, they have a problem with our name, hence the name FYROM. They too "took" a part of Macedonia, the southern called "Egej" ( pronounced "Aegei", i think ). Now, that part was 80% Macedonians, in fact my Grandparents are born there, and duringg the Civil war in Greece they came here. My Grandfather died without visiting his home there, because they didnt allow anyone who was born there to enter Greece until lately. So i guess that they are ( were ) afraid that the people who were born there would ask their land back, which could then lead to say Autonomy, or Independence, and they didnt want that to happen. It`s really silly, all my Grandfather wanted to do before he died was visit his home there. No land, no money, nothing ...
</font>

First of all how is possible that we Greeks "took" a part of Macedonia when Macedonia is part of the Greek civilisation you ignorant kid.
You are not in your wildest dream Macedonians my friend.
I will assume that your official position is the one given by your former president Mr. Kiro Gligorov:

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (A.D)."
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

I agree with you in the Albanian part because they are murderers, parasites, drug dealers and nothing more. They are worst than the Gypsies.
By the way your country is not so innocent as you say.
Can you say No.1 Country of Narcotics and illicit drug trafficking in the Balkans



[This message has been edited by alessandro (edited 06 March 2001).]

[Drizzt]

Hold on hold on soldier
When you add it all up
The tears and the marrowbone
There's an ounce of gold
And an ounce of pride in each ledger
And the Germans killed the Jews
And the Jews killed the Arabs
And the Arabs killed the hostages
And that is the news
And is it any wonder
That the monkey's confused
He said Mama Mama
The President's a fool
Why do I have to keep reading
These technical manuals
And the joint chiefs of staff
And the brokers on Wall Street said
Don't make us laugh
You're a smart kid
Time is linear
Memory is a stranger
History is for fools
Man is a tool in the hands
Of the great God Almighty
And they gave him command
Of a nuclear submarine
And sent him back in search of
The Garden of Eden

[windigo]

lol I think we getting dangerously close to geting this thread cut off but anyways just to push the envelope further
we didnt have concept of owning the provider of life "God" "Yahweh" whatever you want to call this planet and so i rant on

now Alec I'm alive and so is my family we must be pretty strong to survive the institutionalization of genocide that existed on this continent now thats evolutionary.plus our birth rate is ten times higher than the canadian average so give or take a few generations and we'll be back
muhhahahahahahaahha


"You didn't want the land"

of course we didnt "want" it, we had it, we were on it, we lived off it


"wander around aimlessly hunting buffalo for food"

its called migratory patterns you fool


Native Americans ever stopped to consider what would have happened if they HADN'T sided with the French (never an intelligent move in war!)


one nation out of a thousand the Iroquois sided with the French hehehehe


there can be only truth


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MSI K7TPro2 Duron 750@900
256Ram G400DH32mb
Pioneer SCSI 16xDVD

[Goc]

Just popped in to support omegaRED and Macedonians. I'm not a prejudiced man, but after the war that took place in my country, and all the killings, shelling, bombardment and other crap that Serbs generously provided for us Croats, after demanding about 60% of the territory on behalf of the 10% of the population that are Serbs, I would kick ass to any Albanian or anyone else that would try to do the same. We don't have lots of Albanians in our country but I'm perfectly aware of the problems you are having... Geez... I can't believe I got into talking over politics. Politics is crap. Talking over politics makes me an unhappy sheep...

Oh, yeah... One more thing. Bongo, don't try to be smart about things you don't know sh*t about. Yugoslavia as a country was bigger and far more stronger than any of the countries now existing in this territory, but different people living in it just didn't mix... Knowing that you can somehow always relate different religious beliefs to any war, you try sticking roman catholics, orthodox catholics and muslims in one state and make them love each other... It might work if people have a good life-standard, but if you are crawling on the verge of poverty, lots of sheep would follow a sheephearder if he promises them stars&stripes and mixes in some religious or faschist crap like "we were there before them, and they don't even believe in our God".

[This message has been edited by Goc (edited 07 March 2001).]

[Joel]

And they say us Americans have a racism problem.

Joel

[Alec]

It´s true, Gurm.

And land ownership was a concept invented by people other than the american indians. They felt they were the natural owners of the land. They trusted the "aliens" for a while, just to the part when they realized that they wanted their territory.

In a contrary (and a bit more extreme) perspective, you can also say that only the strong survive(d) and the indians lost the battle. (Evolutionary, huh?)

P.S.
There aren´t just two sides to almost every story.


[This message has been edited by Alec (edited 06 March 2001).]

[impact]

...I_can't_resist_it...

But you did have few Joel.